White flood-Jack3d-Cryoshock

[1MoreRepUFool]

Originally Posted by Mfusick

I think that companies that do not disclose the amount of proper ingredients and hide it under and proprietory blend are killing themselves.

Consumers know it means they are underdosed.

It is not the ingredients listed to contain- it is the amount of them.
Many pre workouts don't have enough to be effective

Agree. If you don't know how much your getting of somthing then why purchase it?

[Mfusick]

people following this thread looking for pills and not mixes- should check out either whiteflood tabs. Or if your following the 1,3dymeth arguement check out AMPED PHENOM.


AMPED PHENOM is amazing

[doomfreek]

Out of those 3 white flood is the best, you can just add in mono and the geranium. You dont want the extra fillers that the other pre workout gives... MALTODEXTRIN..is bad and so is the dye...

[dexterium]

Originally Posted by doomfreek

Out of those 3 white flood is the best, you can just add in mono and the geranium. You dont want the extra fillers that the other pre workout gives... MALTODEXTRIN..is bad and so is the dye...

This poll is based on white flood alone, not white flood + geranium + creatine mono vs the other products.

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by dexterium

This poll is based on white flood alone, not white flood + geranium + creatine mono vs the other products.

True. If your looking for all in one- Then Cryoshock would come out on top each time. It is the most complete.

WhiteFlood is kick ass if you add the missing ingredients (creatine + 1,3dymeth)

Jack3d is good if your overdose on it (4-5 scoops) since it is not as strong as Cryoshock per scoop, and delivers less active ingredients per serving. I think a scoop of Jack3d is like 66mg of caffiene where Cryoshock is 100mg+ per scoop. I believe the same hold true for most the other ingredients- the Cryoshock serving is more generous. Jack3d is not a good value if your doing 4 scoops per workout to equal less of another product.

[dexterium]

Don't go over 3 scoops of Jack3d and you don't need to do 4-5 scoops for Jack3d to work amazing. I know people who have used almost everything on the market and 1 - 2 scoops of Jack3d is the best thing they have ever used. Check out the review thread:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=118956981

[dexterium]

and yes, cryoshock and white flood are awesome.

[94jettameowpsst]

TBH i'm not a mainstream supplement guru or user but after taking Cryoshock, im not sure how im going to function during my lifts without it.

Literally a night and day difference.

[StringerrBell]

Tried all three. White Flood by a mile. And I actually like the fact that it doesnt contain creatine because if for whatever reason I wish to go off creatine for a period of time I do not have to discontinue use of my pre-work out supp

[Sam Steele]

I have tried all 3...

Bang for the buck is White Flood (but still need to add creatine)...but I give them credit on quality and break down of ingredients as I hate propriatry blends.

Overall - Cryoshock...but not by much. Jack3d was good as well, but there mix is less detailed than Cryoshock and this is an issue for me...I took 2 scoops for both.

An honest final assessment is that each individual will respond a bit differently to each...I do feel that White Flood lacks 2 important ingredients in this mix but they have quality/label information on their side. I will continue to take Cryo but have no hesitation recommending Jack3d...

[supy]

White Flood for me. Creatine doesnt do anything at all for me maybe because i eat plenty of red meat so its no biggie that it doesnt have it.Cryoskock sucked .Jacked was close to white flood

[Diablomeister]

Originally Posted by Mfusick

More of a pump? Cryoshock no question. It's way beyond the others and contains more stuff. It is Bodyforge + velocityXT + Vasospan. Cryshock is much more complete and more powerful than either Whiteflood or Jacked.

Specifically- Jack3d is weaker and contains much less- and will prove much less effective scoop per scoop compared to Cryoshock.

Whiteflood has as much caffiene- and very close amound of pump stuff and good endurance builders like BetaA- but lacks creatine, and 1,3dymeth- both needed ingredients in a great pre-workout.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

YES - No question. It is so far out front of those other two it can't even see who is in second place.



Agreed. Jack3d is too weak. 66mg of caffiene per scoop. Seriously what's that gonna do?
12mg of 1,3dymeth ? uh... waste of time. You would need 4 or 5 scoops to get enough pump and creatine stuff he is looking for anyways.



Cryshock has way more in it- Just compare the ingredient profiles. The superiority of cryshock is easy to notice if you look at the ingredient list.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

Cryoshock:

Serving Size:1Scoop(~13g)
Servings Per Bottle:18

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

Calories: 24 *
Total Carbohydrates: 6g 2%
Sugars: 0g *
Potassium: 30mg 1%
Sodium: 45mg 2%
Vitamin B3: 10mg 50%
Vitamin B6: 5mg 250%
Vitamin C: 60mg 100%

CryoShock? Proprietary System: 6275mg *

Velocity? Energizing Matrix: 420mg *
Glucuronolactone, Caffeine Anhydrous, Phenethylamine, Hordinine, 1,3-Dimethylamylamine.

Vasospan? Vasodilating Matrix: 1250mg *
Arginine AKG, L-Ornithine, L-Norvaline.

Pro-Endurance Matrix: 2925mg *
Citrulline Malate, L-Leucine, Beta Alanine, Calcium KIC.

Advanced Volumizing Matrix: 1500mg *
Glycine, Creatine AKG, TriCreatine Citrate.

Antioxidant Support Matrix: 180mg *
N-Acetyl-Cysteine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Ginkgo Biloba.

*% Daily Value not established
? Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet

Other Ingredients:
Maltodextrin, Calcium Phosphate, Natural & Artificial Flavors, Sucralose, FD&C Red #40.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

WhiteFLOOD:

314 Grams Electric Lemonade
Supplement Facts
Serving Size~2Scoops(12.55grams)(11cc Per Scoop)
Servings Per Container25

Amount Per Serving % DV*

Calories 0
Calories From Fat 0
Calcium(as Calcium Silicate) 225mg 23%
Potassium(as Gluconate) 36mg 1%
Folate(as Folic Acid) 250mcg 63%
Selenium(as Selenium Amino Acid Chelate) 100mcg 143%

ENO Flood Complex? 3,000mg ?
Arginine AKG (2200 Mg), Ornithine AKG (800mg)

FlooDurance Complex? 2,400mg ?
Beta Alanine (1700 Mg), L-Tyrosine (700 Mg)

Energy & Antioxidant Flood Complex 3,825mg ?
Inosine, Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid (GABA), Glucuronolactone, Natural Caffeine, Potassium Gluconate, Cocoa Bean (Extracted For 99% Theobromine), Evodia Rutaecarpa (95% Evodiamine Extract), L-Norvaline, Sugar Cane (Extracted For 60% Octacosanol), Coenzyme Q10, Vinpocetine, Alpha-Carotene, Zeaxanthin, Crytoxanthin, Lutein, Folic Acid, Selenium, Huperzia Seratta (Extracted For 99% Huperzine A)

* Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2,000 calorie diet
? Daily Value not established

Other Ingredients:
Citric Acid, Natural And Artificial Lemonade Flavor, Calcium Silicate, Acesulfame Potassium And Sucralose

Originally Posted by Mfusick

Jack3d:

225 Grams Lemon Lime
Supplement Facts
Serving Size1Scoop(5.00grams)
Servings Per Container:45

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value*

Y-RD? 153.33mg
Synergistic Methylxanthine Matrix? (Caffeine,Theophylline From Guarana), 1,3-Dimethylamylamine, Dibenzo(A,c) Cycloocten-6-Ol, 5,6,7,8-Tetrahydro-1,2,3,10,11,12-Hexamethoxy- 6,7-Dimethyl-,Stereoisomer (Schizandrol A)

ATP-Carnosine-Vaso Complex? 3500.00mg
Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (AAKG), Creatine Monohydrate, Beta Alanine

* Daily Value not established

Other Ingredients
Citric Acid, Natural Lemon-Lime Flavor, Acesulfame-K, Sucralose, Silicon Dioxide, Alfalfa Powder (For Color).

Originally Posted by Mfusick

I would go 3 scoops of Cryoshock. That's freakin nuts !!!!

Or if your stim sensitive try 1 or 2 scoops with the optional BodyForge scoop. Bodyforge can be added to cryshock for more pump and less energy.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/neo/bodyforge.htm

Originally Posted by Mfusick

U tried Cryoshock ? Back to back days with Whiteflood?

I have. It's pretty obvious which is better. Doubt you did that.

That said- Whiteflood is an excellent product and I use it often. But I add 1,3dymeth to it, along with synephrine, Creatine (green mag or size on) and sometimes citrulline malate.


All that stuff is already in Cryoshock for the most part

Originally Posted by Mfusick

Yup- Creatine is one of the things that WF is missing.

If you add 1,3dymeth, citrulline malate and some creatine to WF- it's almost unstoppable @ 8-10caps dosage.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

25 Servings Tropical Punch
Supplement Facts
Serving Size22Grams(Onelevel scoop)
Servings Per Container25

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

SYNTHENOX-CARNOSINE/NITRIC OXIDE SYNTHESIZING COMPLEX 10,300mg *
L-Citruline DL-Malate 2:1, Beta Alanine, Arginine Alpha Ketoglutarate, Icariin (50%)

MESOWELL-CELL VOLUMIZING ATP MATRIX 4,500mg *
Di-Creatine Malate, L-Taurine, Creatinol-O-Phosphate

NEUROMORPH-NEURO ENERGIZED STIMULANT MATRIX 2,025mg *
Glucoronolactone, Thiamizine (Thiamine Disulfide Butyrate Ester), Methylxanthine Anhydrous, 3 7-Dihydro-3,7-Dimethyl-1H-Purine-2,6-Dione, Naringenin, 1,3 Dimethylamylamine.
----------------------------------

Not a bad ingredient profile- Might have to try it out.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

Not really- You need to take more scoops of it to equal the same amount and effectiveness of other products. Cut the servings per container in half or even two thirds- and then divide the price per serving. Not such a good value anymore.

Originally Posted by Mfusick

lol @ this. 2 scoops of jack3d is a joke. Complete waste of time.

For me- (trying it back to back several times vs others) it takes 3+ scoops of Jack3d (4 really) to get anything that is near the quality i get from cryoshock, clearshot, or even whiteflood or sp250 with the 1,3caps added.

People who say it is a good value usually work for the company as a rep- and they did such a good job promoting that aspect that it is believed now.

But- I can't see anyone who has tried Cryshock saying that Jacked is better. It's not even close. And 2 or 3 scoops of SP250 or WhiteFlood with 1,3dymeth added, and perhaps even some cheap creatine- is way better also.

Jack3d is often times most peoples first supplement with 1,3dymeth in it- and it is that ingredient alone that gives them that focused energy like they never had before. If your a total noob to it- the low dosage is effective since you have no tolerance to this new ingredient. If take other stronger products back to back against it- you soon realize where Jack3d is lacking.

I think the poster was originally looking for pump over energy- in this regard I would say that CRYSHOCK easily delivers the best pump of the bunch- add the bodyforge to it and it's pump-silly.

ANIMAL PUMP is pretty good pump
NITRIC FUEL by TWINLAB is totally KICK ASS !!!!

Originally Posted by Mfusick

Care to disclose the amount of caffiene or 1,3dymeth in a single scoop of Jack3d so we can compare it to other pre-workouts?

I doubt it. I can tell from trying it many times it's not enough.

Optimal dose for me is about 250mg of caffiene and 50mg minimum (75mg really)of 1,3dymeth or Geranamine.

Prove 2 scoops of jack3d contains this much of these two ingredients and I will buy 20 tubs.

There you have it. The gauntlet has been thrown.

Easy for a rep to say somthing like this statement above I quoted. It's a lot more for a consumer paying for a product to reccomend somthing though. I can show you several preworkout products that have this much of these two ingredients.

Can you show me Jack3d does?

Originally Posted by Mfusick

I think that companies that do not disclose the amount of proper ingredients and hide it under and proprietory blend are killing themselves.

Consumers know it means they are underdosed.

It is not the ingredients listed to contain- it is the amount of them.
Many pre workouts don't have enough to be effective

Originally Posted by Mfusick

people following this thread looking for pills and not mixes- should check out either whiteflood tabs. Or if your following the 1,3dymeth arguement check out AMPED PHENOM.


AMPED PHENOM is amazing

Originally Posted by Mfusick

True. If your looking for all in one- Then Cryoshock would come out on top each time. It is the most complete.

WhiteFlood is kick ass if you add the missing ingredients (creatine + 1,3dymeth)

Jack3d is good if your overdose on it (4-5 scoops) since it is not as strong as Cryoshock per scoop, and delivers less active ingredients per serving. I think a scoop of Jack3d is like 66mg of caffiene where Cryoshock is 100mg+ per scoop. I believe the same hold true for most the other ingredients- the Cryoshock serving is more generous. Jack3d is not a good value if your doing 4 scoops per workout to equal less of another product.

this post is almost as annoying as you are.

and btw, look at who's winning the poll

all that aside, WF powder has been the best overall that i have tried, however, im getting some Magnum Serum soon, which i have very high hopes for

[supy]

Originally Posted by Diablomeister

this post is almost as annoying as you are.

and btw, look at who's winning the poll

all that aside, WF powder has been the best overall that i have tried, however, im getting some Magnum Serum soon, which i have very high hopes for

Cryoshock SUCKS IMO.....lol
WhiteFlood knocked cryocrap the **** out

[CONTROLLED LABS]

Originally Posted by dexterium

and yes, cryoshock and white flood are awesome.

Originally Posted by Diablomeister

this post is almost as annoying as you are.

and btw, look at who's winning the poll

all that aside, WF powder has been the best overall that i have tried, however, im getting some Magnum Serum soon, which i have very high hopes for

Originally Posted by supy

Cryoshock SUCKS IMO.....lol
WhiteFlood knocked cryocrap the **** out

glad you guys enjoy white flood. white raspberry flavor is knocking my socks off. free samples are available too

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by Sam Steele

I have tried all 3...

Bang for the buck is White Flood

^^^^ Bingo

Insane pumps, energy, focus... without the ROLLERCOASTER CRASH !

[dutchgrad]

Originally Posted by shadar

Dude... what is with the non-stop posting? We get it, you like Cryoshock....

I like Cryoshock too, though I believe I personally get more pumps off of White flood, though they are very similar pump wise.

I don't quite understand why anyone would use pumps as the primary feature to compare a pre on though... If you just want pumps there are products designed specifically for that, could also buy bulk powders much cheaper.

Pump wise alone though the best pre I've used was animal pump by a mile. Nothing is even remotely close for me. But pumps are far down on the list imo, energy/focus/strength are the important factors as they actually cause gains. Pumps go away after 20-60 mins, kinda an ego boost is all they are unless you can find a way to keep em 24/7.

This^^^^ In fact, some say that extreme pump can actually be counterproductive, as the crowding from swelling can cause some reduction in circulation. Happy to hear otherwise though.

[Num3n]

Originally Posted by Mfusick

I think that companies that do not disclose the amount of proper ingredients and hide it under and proprietory blend are killing themselves.

Consumers know it means they are underdosed.

It is not the ingredients listed to contain- it is the amount of them.
Many pre workouts don't have enough to be effective

you seem to be advocating cryshock but neogenix does it as well.... "CryoShock? Proprietary System: 6275mg"




anyways i was researching what the **** companies actually put into their products and i started with cryshock (as i ended up ordering a tub... its too bad i didnt see the free sample of white flood at the time as i REALLY want to try it.. sadly i cant order jack3d to canada)


Glucuronolactone- Supplementation can be of benefit to those who want increased energy levels and increased feelings of well-being

Caffeine Anhydrous- By stimulating the central nervous system and causing arousal, caffeine can be noticeably ergogenic during high intensity exercise, such as weight training, especially when used only occasionally to enhance performance1, 2, 4. Caffeine also has a powerful lipolytic effect3, increasing the mobilization and therefore oxidation (burning) of body fat stores. This effect on fat use may also contribute to the performance enhancing effects caffeine exerts during long distance and endurance exercise events5.

***(wtf is up with this)*** Phenethylamine- Phenylethylamine's effects on the body are neurological in nature and serious. Phenylethylamine blocks dopamine transmitters, stopping them from performing their needed function within the brain for the entire duration of its half-life within the body. The function of phenylethylamine is much akin to that of other aromatic amines such as amphetamine, methamphetamine and phenylephrine.

Hordinine- Hordinine prolongs all the effects of each stimulant

1,3-Dimethylamylamine- is a derivative of geranium oil which resembles the body?s own chemical messenger, epinephrine (adrenaline). Like adrenaline, 1,3-Dimethylamylamine is a powerful CNS stimulant, for added energy, increased clarity and a boost in physical performance, especially valuable to athletes during calorie restriction or when a high level of focus is needed. For fat loss, 1,3-Dimethylamylamine works through a similar chemical pathway as ephedrine, causing a rise in cAMP, the chemical messenger that triggers fat release.

Arginine AKG- Arginine ia a precursor of nitric oxide and polyamines, respectively -metabolites which participate in a number of metabolic functions. AKG supplements have been shown to promote growth hormone and insulin secretion with anabolic effects in postoperative patients. Their intermediary metabolites (glutamine & proline) may also have beneficial effects in promoting recovery from trauma. In animal studies, AKG supplementation increases levels of arginine and glutamine in skeletal muscles and stimulates immune system function compared to animals not receiving AKG. The immunomodulatory properties found with AKG suggest that it may enhance host-defense mechanisms, particularly during injury and acute stress

L-Ornithine- Because L-Ornithine assists in the production of human growth hormone, it is taken to gain muscle mass by many bodybuilders. This amino acid is also helpful in wound healing and collagen production because of the detoxification properties it encourages and the increased protein synthesis. L-Ornithine is most often combined with Arginine for their synergistic properties.

L-Norvaline- is an analog of the amino acid L-valine. Research shows that L-norvaline is a strong inhibitor of arginase activity because of its structural similarity to ornithine, which causes a feedback regulation on the activity of arginase. When you inhibit arginase, NO is produced continuously at a higher rate in the presence of NOS and adequate L-arginine. L-arginine is the limiting factor for NO production from NOS, so inhibiting the arginase enzyme effectively increases the production of NO by as much as 60%.

Citrulline Malate- Increases nitric oxide production, reduces lactic acid and ammonia, and increases ATP and phosphocreatine recovery.

L-Leucine- L-Leucine has many beneficial effects on sports performance. It helps preserve lean muscle tissue, it supplies the body with energy when under stress (i.e. when engaging in athletic activity), it preserves muscle glycogen (glucose stored in muscle tissue used to power muscular contraction), it maintains nitrogen balance, and it enhances thinking abilities that can decline as physical activity becomes more intense.

Beta Alanine- Increases muscular strength and output, increases muscle mass, increases anaerobic endurance, increases aerobic endurance, and delays muscular fatigue. Essentially a must have for weight lifters. (here is a great article on it http://www.betaalanine.info/)

Calcium KIC- Is an anticatabolic, which means it contributes to muscle growth by helping to move the body from a catabolic (muscle wasting) to anabolic (muscle building) state.

Glycine- Glycine is a non-essential amino acid that can be taken as a supplement. It may be used to treat stomach ulcers, schizophrenia, anxiety (nervousness), insomnia (trouble sleeping), hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), and gout. It may also decrease muscle spasms, symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), and boost the immune system.

Creatine AKG- creatine-AKG transports more creatine directly into muscle cells and this results in a higher muscular creatine concentration. With a higher creatine concentration in the muscle, strength and power performance is significantly enhanced.

TriCreatine Citrate- (as far as I can tell just basically a regular creatine :\ )

N-Acetyl-Cysteine- this can cause damage to the heart and lungs? its other effects are pointless and this product in my opinion shouldn?t be in here.

Alpha Lipoic Acid- Alpha lipoic acid is a fatty acid found naturally inside every cell in the body. It's needed by the body to produce the energy for our body's normal functions. Alpha lipoic acid converts glucose (blood sugar) into energy

Ginkgo Biloba- Ginkgo works by increasing blood flow to the brain and throughout the body's network of blood vessels that supply blood and oxygen to the organ systems. It increases metabolism efficiency, regulates neurotransmitters, and boosts oxygen levels in the brain which uses 20% of the body's oxygen. Ginkgo may also help control the transformation of cholesterol to plaque associated with the hardening of arteries, and can relax constricted blood vessels. Benefits of enhanced circulation in the brain include improved short and long term memory, increased reaction time and improved mental clarity. Ginkgo has been shown to be a supportive herb for treating infertility in males or impotence. Ginkgo Biloba also helps prevent damage to your organs from free radicals, and also blocks the platelet activating factor which causes some skin disorders such as psoriasis. Ginkgo Biloba's beneficial effects on the circulatory system also helps in the treatment of eye and ear disorders. Side effects include, headaches, restlessness, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, and may increase the risk of bleeding.

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by 94jettameowpsst

TBH i'm not a mainstream supplement guru or user but after taking Cryoshock, im not sure how im going to function during my lifts without it.

Literally a night and day difference.

You will manage- Cycling stims is a smart idea. If for nothing else- than to go back to them and have them work just as good.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by supy

WhiteFlood knocked cryocrap the **** out

Strong words !

[thenexlevel]

What about NO Shotgun compared to these three?

[Altitude]

I wonder if we can get any more company reps on these threads to give their "opinions"??? Sheesh, enough fellas. We know you love your company's products.

[triplewhammy]

Originally Posted by Altitude

I wonder if we can get any more company reps on these threads to give their "opinions"??? Sheesh, enough fellas. We know you love your company's products.

dang you caught us!

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by Diablomeister

this post is almost as annoying as you are.

and btw, look at who's winning the poll

all that aside, WF powder has been the best overall that i have tried, however, im getting some Magnum Serum soon, which i have very high hopes for

No question who would win the poll- the poll is a popularity contest. Most people voting probably have not actually tried all three products back to back comparision style.

Also- all three are high quality products- the end consumer could not really go wrong with any of them.

You seem to think I don't like whiteflood- but your wrong. It's a kick ass product- I buy and use it.

My only comments were that you need to add creatine and possible (I like) 1,3dymeth for that extra focus/energy - which are in both the other two products in question.

WF does have more of some good stuff than the other two- and the pumps are pretty good for sure.

I like how CL markets the line and if you stacked WF with PurpleWrath + GreenMag + Glycergrow - I am pretty sure on the pump aspect it would be tops - but you need a few products to equal all the stuff in Cryshock- and my fear is many people would not purchase and stack the whole line of CL products vs buying and taking 2 scoops of a single product. This because of budget or mental limitation possibly- but many people don't take many multiple supplements.

If people did take multiple supplements- Then the all in one mixes would not even be used based on overall effectiveness. My comments were all regarding "completeness" and the lack or not of ingredients. If price and all in one were not concerns- you would see people supplement differently- but either price, quantity, or level of consumer knowledge prevents this.

A significantly better stack than either WF,Cryo, or Jack3d would be:

2 scoops Whey in 1% Milk -90 minutes Pre-workout
1 Universal Animal Pak - 60 Minutes Pre-workout
1 Universal Animal Stak - 40 Minutes Pre-workout
8 Gakic pills - 40 Minutes Pre-workout
8 Twinlab Nitric Fuel Tabs -30 Minutes Pre-workout
6 caps E-Pharm Concentrate - 20 Min Pre-workout
2 scoops SizeOn in 10 calorie VitaminWater - Intra workout
2 scoops Extend in Vitamin Water - Intra workout
1 Scoop PurpleWrath In Vitamin Water Intraworkout
3 Scoops Whey 15 min - Post workout
TacoBell - $12 worth Burritos and Tacos 35 min Post workout

Of coarse the fact that it is significantly better - means nothing because not many people would do it becuase of cost, amount of supplements needed, effort, or knowledge.

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by Num3n

you seem to be advocating cryshock but neogenix does it as well.... "CryoShock? Proprietary System: 6275mg"




anyways i was researching what the **** companies actually put into their products and i started with cryshock (as i ended up ordering a tub... its too bad i didnt see the free sample of white flood at the time as i REALLY want to try it.. sadly i cant order jack3d to canada)

Yup- Proprietary blends blow dead guys with massive hard-ons

You can almost sorta figure how much creatine, AAKG, Beta9, ect... but it is still tough.

I would like to know exactly how much of what I am getting- and that is why I personally prefer seperate individual Ingredients- vs all in ones. Seperate works better- by a mile

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by Altitude

I wonder if we can get any more company reps on these threads to give their "opinions"??? Sheesh, enough fellas. We know you love your company's products.

The end consumer should know to put more emphasis and count more the words of users and ordinary people vs. the Company Reps.

Company Reps have a great place here on the forums- and I have much apreaciation for them- But- the fact they will promote thier own brand is never a suprise to anyone.

Someone who spends thier own money on a companies products- money they earned and have a choice to spend on somthing else- opinion- matters more I think.

At end of the day- WF, CRyo, and Jack3d are all good products

[Mfusick]

Originally Posted by thenexlevel

What about NO Shotgun compared to these three?

NEVER TRIED IT. IS IT any good?